The creation of ObamaCrapCare was a disaster, however, the authors of this abortion are making it worse by explicitly exempting themselves and their staff from the garbage they wrote. If this is not the height of conceit, nothing is. They don't want to be covered by the ill-conceived and executed health plan that they are foisting on us. This is not leadership, this is telling us that we have two classes of people in this country, them and us.
For those who think that ObamaCrapCare is so good, you need to ask yourself the following question: if it is such a wonderful development, why would the authors not want to be covered by it? It does not take much thought!
We need to stop the funding of this program, otherwise, we will look back at the "good ole days" of great health insurance.
Conservative Tom
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/04/obamacare-exemption-lawmakers-aides-90610.html#ixzz2RhcSFiK8
For those who think that ObamaCrapCare is so good, you need to ask yourself the following question: if it is such a wonderful development, why would the authors not want to be covered by it? It does not take much thought!
We need to stop the funding of this program, otherwise, we will look back at the "good ole days" of great health insurance.
Conservative Tom
Lawmakers, aides may get Obamacare exemption
Congressional leaders in both parties are engaged in high-level, confidential talks about exempting lawmakers and Capitol Hill aides from the insurance exchanges they are mandated to join as part of President Barack Obama’s health care overhaul, sources in both parties said.
The talks — which involve Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.), House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio), the Obama administration and other top lawmakers — are extraordinarily sensitive, with both sides acutely aware of the potential for political fallout from giving carve-outs from the hugely controversial law to 535 lawmakers and thousands of their aides. Discussions have stretched out for months, sources said.
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A source close to the talks says: “Everyone has to hold hands on this and jump, or nothing is going to get done.”
Yet if Capitol Hill leaders move forward with the plan, they risk being dubbed hypocrites by their political rivals and the American public. By removing themselves from a key Obamacare component, lawmakers and aides would be held to a different standard than the people who put them in office.
Democrats, in particular, would take a public hammering as the traditional boosters of Obamacare. Republicans would undoubtedly attempt to shred them over any attempt to escape coverage by it, unless Boehner and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) give Democrats cover by backing it.
There is concern in some quarters that the provision requiring lawmakers and staffers to join the exchanges, if it isn’t revised, could lead to a “brain drain” on Capitol Hill, as several sources close to the talks put it.
The problem stems from whether members and aides set to enter the exchanges would have their health insurance premiums subsidized by their employer — in this case, the federal government. If not, aides and lawmakers in both parties fear that staffers — especially low-paid junior aides — could be hit with thousands of dollars in new health care costs, prompting them to seek jobs elsewhere. Older, more senior staffers could also retire or jump to the private sector rather than face a big financial penalty.
Plus, lawmakers — especially those with long careers in public service and smaller bank accounts — are also concerned about the hit to their own wallets.
House Minority Whip Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) is worried about the provision. The No. 2 House Democrat has personally raised the issue with Boehner and other party leaders, sources said.
“Mr. Hoyer is looking at this policy, like all other policies in the Affordable Care Act, to ensure they’re being implemented in a way that’s workable for everyone, including members and staff,” said Katie Grant, Hoyer’s communications director.
Several proposals have been submitted to the Office of Personnel Management, which will administer the benefits. One proposal exempts lawmakers and aides; the other exempts aides alone.
When asked about the high-level bipartisan talks, Michael Steel, a Boehner spokesman, said: “The speaker’s objective is to spare the entire country from the ravages of the president’s health care law. He is approached daily by American citizens, including members of Congress and staff, who want to be freed from its mandates. If the speaker has the opportunity to save anyone from Obamacare, he will.”
Reid’s office declined to comment about the bipartisan talks.
However, the idea of exempting lawmakers and aides from the exchanges has its detractors, including Rep. Henry Waxman (D-Calif.), a key Obamacare architect. Waxman thinks there is confusion about the content of the law. The Affordable Care Act, he said, mandates that the federal government will still subsidize and provide health plans obtained in the exchange. There will be no additional cost to lawmakers and Hill aides, he contends.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/04/obamacare-exemption-lawmakers-aides-90610.html#ixzz2RhcSFiK8
"For those who think that ObamaCrapCare is so good, you need to ask yourself the following question: if it is such a wonderful development, why would the authors not want to be covered by it? It does not take much thought!"
ReplyDeleteI agree; it doesn't take much thought. All you have to do is compare Obamacare to the sweet deal Congress has provided themselves for health insurance. They do not want to give up their gold-plated healthcare plan that the federal government subsidizes for them at 75%! That is what they stand to lose.
The question you opponents of ACA should be asking yourselves is: "Why should Congress award itself a better healthcare deal than the rest of us, considering how little productive work they get done in their jobs?"
--David
I agree, Congress is a waste of money. They do little productive work, spend money on themselves like they were princes and princesses. And they refuse to rein in the King and Queen.
ReplyDeleteThey also have made their jobs lifetime privileges to be handed down from father to son or daughter. Instead of
them being "public servants" but have become "pubic servants". People like Anthony Weiner are extolled as misunderstood rascals instead of maladjusted perverts. Barney Frank is hailed as a leader while his "partner" steals money and he is not touched.
They are a bunch of sick, power hungry, self absorbed idiots. Does that make my feelings clear?
My point is that you shouldn't be surprised to see the self-serving Congress hesitate to give up their fabulous healthcare plan and accept Obamacare for themselves. This says more about themselves than it says about the quality of of the ACA plan.
ReplyDelete--David
I think that you are right as far as you go, however, if the plan was so spectacular would not our leaders want to be part of it?
ReplyDeleteObamacare is only spectacular relative to what it is replacing, not to what Congress already has enacted for themselves. They may, nonetheless, have their greed overcome by their fear of a voter backlash. We'll see.
ReplyDelete--David
ObamaCrapCare will be spectacular in the failure it will be. It will NOT increase the amount of people who are covered, it will decrease those numbers; it will increase the premiums paid by the average family; it will reduce the number of physicians by 20%; it will quantitatively decrease the quality of health care in this country. It will be a spectacular failure.
ReplyDeleteDemocratic supporters, the press and others are coming to the realization that ObamaCrapCare is one of the worst, most ill-conceived pieces of legislation that government has ever passed.
Obamacare will raise the percentage having coverage to 90% or higher by 2020. Premiums paid by consumers will be less on average than they would have been without Obamacare due to the 10% rule and subsidies for low-income people. The problem with primary care physicians pre-dated Obamacare and is caused by the internal economics of the medical profession in this country. As with European countries that have universal healthcare, our population health stats (infant mortality, etc,.) will improve under Obamacare. I will put $20 on any of these predictions, if you are interested. Over and out.
ReplyDelete--David
That is a great bet which I would love to take. I can win that any day. However, I do not how that will be measured, whose report will be used to determine the answer. We can not even agree on unemployment, the amount of debt that the country has or what which conspiracy theory you hate most!!
ReplyDeleteGive me some way to measure the decision, the date and then we can talk.
Okay, here is one where there can't be any argument about the source or the facts. The Center for Disease Control (CDC) does a population survey every year that reports the percentage of persons uninsured. Their 2012 survey states...
ReplyDelete"In 2011, the percentage of persons uninsured at the time of interview was 15.1% (46.3 million) for persons of all ages…"
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nhis/released201206.htm
Open enrollment on the exchanges begins October, 2013. All exchanges will be operational by January, 2014. By the end of 2014, we will see significant results. Let's make the bet on whether the 2014 CDC report on percentage uninsured is greater or lesser in 2014 than 2012. If the percentage uninsured increases, you win. If the percentage uninsured decreases, I win. Deal?
Feel free to propose bets on any of the other items.
--David
Do we count the illegals who will be covered by obamacrapcare?
ReplyDeleteFact-checking…
ReplyDelete"More than 11 million unauthorized immigrants live in the United States, according to the Pew Hispanic Center, a nonpartisan research center. That amounts to nearly 4 percent of the total population. But there are no provisions that address illegal immigrants in the health care law.
They won't be able to sign up for Medicaid. They won't be eligible for the tax credits to help buy coverage. And they won't be able to use online marketplaces that the government will set up in order for people to get coverage in a process that's similar to buying plane tickets on travel web sites. Those online exchanges, much like the tax credits, will require proof of citizenship.
"They will still need to find alternative ways to seek care because nothing in the law really expands coverage and affordable coverage options for undocumented immigrants," says Sonal Ambegaokar, a health policy attorney with the National Immigration Law Center in Los Angeles.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/obamacare-wont-cover-everyone-2012-6#ixzz2SWySpjf8
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Illegal immigrants are not eligible for Obamacare. As stated above, you must provide proof of citizenship to participate in the exchanges. There might be a handful of illegals who would risk deportation by applying and somehow not get caught, but the number would be totally insignificant for our purposes.
I checked the technical notes on the CDC survey. It is a random survey of U.S. households: "Data are based on household interviews of a sample of the civilian noninstitutionalized population." So, that is our sample universe. Okay? Deal?
--David
Illegal aliens are not supposed to get Social Security but they do. They are not supposed to get welfare, but they do. They are not supposed to get college loans, but they do. Anytime government is involved, illegal aliens will get the benefits as there are weak minded, soft hearted government bureaucrats who will give it to them by finding a way around the regulations.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, the counts on illegal aliens vary all over the place. It could be 11 million or it could be 20 million as most of the illegals live in the shadows. The only thing is that we know that more are coming and so if it is 11 now, in 5 years it will be 20 and they WILL demand health care and your government will give it to them!
How many illegals are collecting Social Security? There is no data on this, so you can imagine any number you want. It is certainly a VERY small number compared to the total number of persons on Social Security. You can't get welfare or Obamacare without a Social Security number, and you can't get a SS number without submitting a valid birth certificate.
ReplyDeleteFor you to use this illegal immigrants on Obamacare argument as your excuse when you lose the bet, you would have to claim that more illegal immigrants were able to fraudulently obtain Medicaid than the -- according to you -- huge number of people who will lose their insurance under Obamacare. That is an absurd proposition to any reasonable person, but it does give you a way to squirm out of the bet. So, no bet?
--David
Your argument runs contrary to the argument used by those in favor of illegals. How many people have argued that illegals pay taxes and cannot collect? They all get social security cards, illegally but they get them. It is obvious that you have never interviewed people who are illegal. They all have drivers licenses, social security cards. You need to get out of your comfort zone!!
Delete"They all get social security cards, illegally but they get them. It is obvious that you have never interviewed people who are illegal."
ReplyDeleteFalse. The Social Security Administration does not hand out SS numbers like candy to illegals. That is not to say that some manage to slip through the cracks with fraudulent documents, but you'd have to believe that the SS administration has no control over this process to claim that they are incapable of preventing fraud on the scale you are claiming (with, as usual, zero evidence to back it up). Perhaps you are confusing illegals with non-citizens who enter the country legally on work visas and get SS numbers through the normal process.
I am convinced that you are simply throwing this in to avoid the bet. Heck, I will even give you some number of illegals for purposes of the bet. How many would you like to claim will apply and receive healthcare through ACA?
--David
The dems voted for giving illegal aliens health care!http://www.ijreview.com/2013/03/43188-you-lie-democrats-vote-to-give-free-healthcare-to-illegal-immigrants/
ReplyDeleteThe path to citizenship, which you support, will give them social security cards legally on top of those paying in right now through fraudulent ssns. Check out this article: http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/social-security-risk-impact-immigration-reform-124712696.html
ReplyDeleteWhere do you get the idea that I support path to citizenship? I have never said that. The path to citizenship is to do it legally in the first place. You are changing the subject again.
ReplyDeleteThe question is: How many illegals on Obamacare do I need to give you to accept the bet? 1,000? 1,000,000? Give me a number.
--David
Talk about changing the subject--this whole stream started with YOUR Congressmen/women not taking Obamacrapcare but keeping their own.
ReplyDeleteSo, we do agree on a path to citizenship? Right?
As far as your question, there will be millions on ObamaCrapCare just like there are now illegals getting welfare, college educations, drivers licenses and other benefits, that are supposed to be going only to citizens.
As far as the bet, the numbers will be impossible to quantify just like those on MI Child (the poor children s program in Michigan. In my little circle, I know of several people who use the program even though they earn over $100,000 each year, legally. That was not the intent, but it happens.
I don't think we could agree on one source that would quantify the numbers because, it can't be the government as it is in their interests not to report the truth and other private organizations have their own political ax to grind.
I might give you the upper end of your estimate. How many millions of illegals will receive Obamacare? I think I would still win the bet if you want 3 million (which is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS number), but you won't give my a number, because you know you will lose this bet no matter what number you choose. I already proposed the CDC survey as source. You got a conspiracy problem with them? How about the Census Bureau? How about Commonwealth Fund? I'll take any of them. You choose.
ReplyDelete--David
By 2020 there will be at least 30 million (illegals or previous illegals who were just given a free pass) on Obamacrapcare. That is only 7 years away and well within the 11 years to get the path to citizenship.
ReplyDeleteThere will be no way to quantify how many illegals became legal as we don't have an illegal quantifiable number now.
Your argument is ludicrous as it cannot be won by either side.
They already get welfare, medicaid, etc etc, why not Obamacrapcare?
"There will be no way to quantify how many illegals became legal as we don't have an illegal quantifiable number now."
ReplyDeleteThat is why, for the sake of argument, I offered to possibly stipulate to whatever number of illegals you would estimate on the HIGH end. You would not even do that.
Well, the Social Security Administration says there are 3.1 million in their "suspend file." I said we are comparing 2014 to 2012 percentage of U.S. population uninsured. I could give you all 3.1 million illegals paying Social Security and probably still win the bet. You wouldn't even take that bet, because we both know that there will be several times that number more U.S. citizens getting healthcare thanks to Obamacare by the end of 2014. That was the bet. It is simple. It is quantifiable....and you would lose.
--David
There will be a massive increase of uninsured in 2014 and 2015 as employers decide to drop coverage and people decide they will accept the penalty of ObamaCrapCare rather than purchase insurance! This is going to be a castastrophe of unforeseen size.
ReplyDeleteIllegal immigrants will mitigate those numbers as they swell the ranks of insured by being added to Obamacrapcare.
There are more than 40 million uninsured, and 75% of them are U.S. citizens. If there were a massive increase in uninsured by this group as you predict, how on earth could ANY number of illegals (3.1 million tops) be enough to offset the number of uninsured U.S. citizens who will lose their insurance? No way. I know it. You know it. That's why you won't take the bet.
ReplyDelete--David
P.S. I have been following Supreme Court decisions per our Roberts project. So far, Roberts has voted with Alito, Scalia, Thomas, and Kennedy on all 5-4 decisions this term. The BIG one comes next month on affirmative action, unless you are going to tell me our black president has no interest in affirmative action.
There are more than 3.1 million illegals. They are at least 20 million. When they get ObamaCrapCare, the 20 million will offset some of the 20 million additional US citizens that will lose their coverage. It already is happening. Employers are cutting hours to less than 30 hours for full time employers. The bad effects have not been seen yet, just wait until janurary 2014 and you will see the first round. It will get worse every year until 2020.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, Obama is only half black who did benefit from affirmative action, however, unless you have not noticed, he does not care for other blacks. He is all in it for himself.
As far as the Supreme court decisions, you keep missing my point, Obama will not intervene unless it affects him. Unless he has something to lose and lose big, he will not pull out the Roberts card. Unless he has something to lose, Roberts will be allowed to do whatever he thinks unless Obama wants his vote and then he will vote for Obama just like he did with ObamaCrapcare.
Where do you get 20 million? That is way too high, according to every independent source (like Pew). It is around 11-12 million, and only 3.1 million pay into Social Security.
ReplyDeleteI know your position. That is why I have not said much about the 5-4 decisions so far, even though Roberts has been voting consistently with the conservative wing. I am waiting to hear what you have to say about the forthcoming Texas affirmative action case. Are you going to tell me Obama has no interest in affirmative action? Seriously? Every liberal is as passionate about affirmative action as conservatives are passionately against it. That is why I can just about guarantee you a 5-4 split.
--David
Fact-checking….
ReplyDeleteResearchers all agree that there are approximately 11 to 12 million illegals and the number has not changed much since the recession. They come for jobs, and the job market has been poor since the recession…
http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/11/17691515-by-the-numbers-how-america-tallies-its-111-million-undocumented-immigrants?lite
I gave you 3.1 as the top number a conspiracy theorist could claim for Obamacare enrollments, since that is the number of SS numbers the Social Security administration says is in their "suspend file." Whether you are a U.S. citizen, an illegal immigrant, or an alien from Mars, you are not going to get enrolled in Obamacare without a SS number. Our bet is for end of 2014, and there is no reason to believe that millions of illegals are suddenly going to be able to slip through the cracks from 2012 to 2014 and not end up in the suspend file if they try to fraud the Social Security administration with their online application for Obamacare (which requires a valid SS number). Do you really think the applications will not get cross-matched against the suspend file and rejected if they are not legit SS numbers? I guess you must believe that the Social Security administration is part of some Obama conspiracy to just award Obamacare to any illegal who applies. Right?
The following article from april in the Christian Science Monitor gives a thoughtful analysis of the illegal immigrant problem. the problem that we see is that once the illegals are made legal; their relatives are given access; those who will swell our immigration requests --all of these will be on social security and therefore be able to get health insurance through obamacrapcare.
ReplyDeleteDo you really think there is any chance this Congress will pass an immigration bill? I would be amazed.
ReplyDeleteBesides, even if it were to happen, the illegals don't become citizens for many years. The "path to citizenship" would run all of them long beyond 2014 to become citizens and, thereby, eligible for Obamacare. That makes any immigration bill moot for purposes of our bet.
--David